Interview with Isabel Wilkerson: Understanding the Burden of Caste

In the realm of social analysis and understanding, few authors have illuminated the deeply ingrained structures that shape society quite like Isabel Wilkerson. Her groundbreaking book Caste has quickly become a seminal work, sparking vital conversations about the enduring legacy of caste systems and their profound implications in contemporary societies.

Today, we have the distinguished honor of speaking with Isabel Wilkerson, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author who has dedicated her career to unearthing the complexities of race, class, and power dynamics. With her latest work, Caste, she delves into the often overlooked yet omnipresent system that silently influences our lives.

Through meticulous research, compelling anecdotes, and powerful storytelling, Wilkerson unravels the intricate fabric of caste that exists not only in historical contexts but also within the modern landscapes of nations across the globe. Drawing on a vast range of examples from India, Nazi Germany, and the United States, Wilkerson compellingly exposes the deceptive nature of caste, which can silently dictate the opportunities, privileges, and limitations individuals and communities face.

Within the pages of Caste, Wilkerson proposes a transformative lens through which we can understand and address the pervasive inequalities that persist. She challenges us to confront uncomfortable truths, urging readers to reconsider long-held assumptions and examine the systemic forces that perpetuate discrimination, oppression, and the marginalization of certain groups.

Wilkerson’s masterful ability to synthesize complex concepts and present them in accessible language has earned her critical acclaim and widespread recognition. By examining the intersections of caste, race, and class, she illuminates the far-reaching consequences of these socially constructed hierarchies on the lives of individuals and nations alike.

As we embark on this interview with Isabel Wilkerson, we are eager to delve deeper into the genesis of her research, the challenges she encountered while unraveling the intricate web of caste, and the potential paths to dismantling these deeply entrenched systems. Through her profound insights and expertise, Wilkerson offers us an opportunity to foster empathy, understanding, and ultimately, work towards a more equitable world for all.

Who is Isabel Wilkerson?

Isabel Wilkerson is an American journalist and author known for her groundbreaking work on race, history, and social issues. She gained widespread recognition with the publication of her book “The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America’s Great Migration” in 2010. This critically acclaimed work delves into the history of the Great Migration, a significant movement of millions of African Americans from the Southern states to the North and West between 1915 and 1970.

Wilkerson’s writing skillfully combines historical research, personal narratives, and sociological analysis to illuminate the experiences and challenges faced by those who participated in this massive demographic shift. “The Warmth of Other Suns” garnered numerous awards and became a bestseller, solidifying Isabel Wilkerson’s reputation as a prominent voice in American literature.

In addition to her writing, Wilkerson has had a distinguished career in journalism, having worked as a correspondent and bureau chief for The New York Times. Her work has received accolades, including the Pulitzer Prize for Feature Writing. Isabel Wilkerson’s contributions to understanding and addressing issues of race and identity have made her an influential figure in contemporary American literature and public discourse. This video is about that MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell is joined by Isabel Wilkerson, the author of The New York Times #1 bestseller “Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents,” to discuss her hope that efforts to understand and dismantle America’s caste system will only strengthen democracy.

20 In-Depth Questions with Isabel Wilkerson

1. Could you share ten thought-provoking Caste quotes that shed light on the profound impact of caste systems and their effects on societies around the world?

1. “Caste is the granting or withholding of respect, status, honor, attention, privileges, resources, benefit of the doubt, and human kindness to someone on the basis of their perceived rank or standing in a hierarchy.”

2. “The very word ‘caste’ comes from the Portuguese ‘casta,’ meaning breed or race—a measure of how deeply the system has become embedded in the thinking of those subjected to it.”

3. “Caste is a disease that infects every aspect of our society.”

4. “Just as fish are oblivious to the water in which they swim, so too do we often fail to see the structure of caste and its impact on our lives.”

5. “Caste is not just a social construct; it is a psychological one, as well. It becomes the architecture of our thoughts and the infrastructure of our divisions.”

6. “Caste teaches us what our place is in the world and who we are meant to be, based upon attributes beyond our control—such as the color of our skin or the religion into which we were born.”

7. “Caste restricts the freedom of both the privileged and the oppressed, creating a prison of expectations and limitations that hinder the full potential of individuals and societies.”

8. “Caste does not limit its impact to the marginalized—it poisons the very soul of a nation, diminishing the humanity of all who participate in its perpetuation.”

9. “Caste systems are not relics of the past; they continue to shape our present reality, often operating invisibly but with devastating consequences.”

10. To dismantle caste systems, we must first acknowledge their existence and confront the uncomfortable truths they reveal about our societies. Only then can we work towards building a world where all individuals are truly free and equal.”

These quotes highlight the far-reaching effects of caste systems on individuals and societies, emphasizing the need for awareness, acknowledgment, and action to dismantle these oppressive structures and create a more just and equitable world.

2. What compelled you to explore the concept of caste and write a book on this topic? Why do you believe it is an important framework for understanding social structures?

The concept of caste has always fascinated me due to its pervasiveness and impact on societies across the world. As I delved deeper into the history of caste systems, I realized that this social structure went beyond race or class and had profound implications for individuals’ lives. I felt compelled to explore and write a book on this topic because understanding caste is crucial for comprehending the deep-rooted social hierarchies that persist in various parts of the world.

Caste provides a powerful framework for understanding social structures because it goes beyond individual prejudices and biases. It encompasses a complex system of beliefs, rituals, and practices that dictate people’s roles, opportunities, and access to resources based on their birth. By examining caste, we can uncover the underlying mechanisms that perpetuate inequality and limit social mobility. It helps us recognize how deeply ingrained these systems are and encourages us to challenge and dismantle them to build more inclusive and equitable societies.

3. In “Caste,” you draw parallels between the caste system in India, the Jim Crow era in the United States, and Nazi Germany. Can you discuss how these different manifestations of caste interact and shape each other?

In “Caste,” I draw parallels between the caste system in India, the Jim Crow era in the United States, and Nazi Germany to illustrate how different manifestations of caste interact and shape each other. Despite varying historical contexts, these caste-like systems share common features: a rigid hierarchy, discrimination, dehumanization, and the systemic exclusion of certain groups based on perceived superiority or inferiority.

By studying these different manifestations, we can identify the patterns that transcend borders and time periods. For example, the Nazis drew inspiration from eugenics theories prevalent in the United States during the Jim Crow era, showcasing the global influence of caste-like ideologies. Understanding these connections allows us to grasp the universal nature of caste systems and recognize that they are not confined to specific regions or cultures. It underscores the urgent need to confront these oppressive systems collectively and work towards dismantling them worldwide.

4. Your book highlights the role of power and privilege in upholding caste systems. How does this dynamic perpetuate inequality and hinder social progress?

Power and privilege play a central role in upholding caste systems. Those in dominant positions benefit from the hierarchies, while those at the bottom face discrimination and limited opportunities. This dynamic perpetuates inequality by reinforcing social divisions and concentrating resources in the hands of a few. Privileged groups often use their power to maintain their position, ensuring that the system remains intact.

The perpetuation of caste systems hinders social progress in multiple ways. It curtails equal access to education, healthcare, and economic opportunities, limiting upward mobility for marginalized groups. The unequal distribution of power leads to the consolidation of resources, exacerbating economic disparities. Additionally, the psychological impact of caste-based discrimination erodes individuals’ self-worth and creates a pervasive sense of inferiority.

By shedding light on the role of power and privilege in upholding caste systems, we can better understand the structural barriers that impede social change. Recognizing this dynamic calls for challenging entrenched hierarchies, redistributing power, and creating inclusive policies that address historical injustices. Only by actively dismantling these systems can we strive towards greater equality and foster a more just society for all.

5. “Caste” delves into the historical roots of caste systems and their influence on contemporary societies. Were there any surprising or lesser-known historical events or figures that you encountered during your research?

During my research for “Caste,” I encountered several surprising historical events and figures that shed light on the far-reaching influence of caste systems. One such example is the story of Dr. Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar, an Indian scholar and social reformer who played a pivotal role in fighting against caste-based discrimination. His contributions to drafting India’s constitution and advocating for the rights of marginalized groups were truly remarkable and lesser-known to many outside of South Asia.

I also came across the story of Robert Pershing Foster, an African American doctor who faced immense challenges due to the caste-like system of segregation in the United States. His journey challenged traditional notions of caste and highlighted the ways in which it shaped individuals’ lives and aspirations.

These lesser-known historical figures and their experiences demonstrate that the impact of caste extends beyond specific regions or communities. They serve as powerful reminders of the human struggle against oppressive systems and provide valuable insights into the lived realities of those affected by caste.

6. The concept of caste often seems intangible, yet its consequences are very real. How did you navigate the challenge of conveying the complexities of caste to readers in a way that makes it comprehensible and relatable?

Conveying the complexities of caste in a comprehensible and relatable manner was indeed a challenge. To navigate this, I employed various strategies throughout the book. Firstly, I used storytelling and personal narratives to illustrate the effects of caste on individual lives, making it more tangible and relatable for readers.

I also drew comparisons and analogies between caste and other familiar systems, such as race or class, to help readers grasp the nuances of caste dynamics. By highlighting similarities and shared patterns, I aimed to bridge the gap between the intangible nature of caste and its real-world consequences.

Furthermore, I incorporated historical context and empirical evidence to provide a comprehensive understanding of caste systems. By grounding the discussion in both historical events and contemporary examples, I hoped to make the complexities of caste more accessible to readers.

Ultimately, my goal was to create a narrative that combined rigorous research with compelling storytelling to engage readers intellectually and emotionally, helping them comprehend the profound impact of caste on individuals and societies.

7. Your book explores the ways in which inherited assumptions about hierarchy shape interpersonal relationships. Can you elaborate on the psychological and emotional impacts of living within a caste system?

Living within a caste system has profound psychological and emotional impacts on individuals. It shapes their sense of self, identity, and belonging. Those who are privileged by the caste system often internalize superiority and entitlement, leading to a distorted perception of others. On the other hand, those who are marginalized experience dehumanization, erasure of their worth, and a constant struggle for recognition and dignity.

The psychological toll of caste manifests in various ways, including low self-esteem, internalized oppression, anxiety, and a perpetuating cycle of social exclusion. People may develop coping mechanisms or conform to societal expectations, suppressing their true potential and aspirations.

Living within a caste system also affects interpersonal relationships. It creates divisions and hierarchies even within families and communities, leading to strained interactions and the perpetuation of discriminatory practices. The fear of crossing boundaries or challenging the status quo can hinder genuine connection and empathy between individuals.

By exploring these psychological and emotional impacts, “Caste” aims to illuminate the deeply ingrained consequences of caste systems, fostering empathy and understanding while urging us to challenge and dismantle these harmful structures.

8. Throughout “Caste,” you emphasize the importance of recognizing our shared humanity and working towards dismantling oppressive systems. What steps can individuals and communities take to confront and address caste-based discrimination?

Recognizing our shared humanity and working towards dismantling caste-based discrimination requires both individual and collective action. Individuals can start by educating themselves about the history and impact of caste systems, actively seeking out diverse perspectives, and challenging their own biases and assumptions. Engaging in open dialogue and conversations about caste with friends, family, and colleagues is essential to raise awareness and foster understanding.

Communities can play a crucial role by creating spaces for discussions on caste, ensuring that policies and institutions are inclusive and promote equality, and supporting organizations and initiatives focused on social justice. It is important to amplify and uplift the voices of those affected by caste-based discrimination, providing platforms for marginalized communities to share their experiences and advocate for change.

Additionally, it is vital to work towards dismantling structural barriers and creating opportunities for socioeconomic mobility. This includes advocating for equal access to education, healthcare, employment, and political representation for all individuals regardless of their caste or background.

9. In your opinion, what are some of the main obstacles hindering the eradication of caste systems worldwide, and how can societies overcome them?

Several obstacles hinder the eradication of caste systems worldwide. Deeply ingrained beliefs, cultural norms, and intergenerational conditioning reinforce the hierarchy and resistance to change. Caste-based discrimination often intersects with other forms of oppression, such as gender, race, and religion, further complicating efforts to address and dismantle these systems.

Political apathy, lack of awareness, and the absence of comprehensive anti-caste policies pose significant challenges. Caste systems are deeply entrenched in power structures, and those who benefit from the existing hierarchy may resist efforts to challenge or reform the system.

Overcoming these obstacles requires sustained activism, grassroots movements, and widespread education on caste-related issues. Societies need to foster a culture of empathy, allyship, and solidarity across caste lines. Governments and institutions must enact laws and policies that actively combat caste-based discrimination and ensure accountability for violations.

10. “Caste” challenges the notion of meritocracy and questions the idea that success is solely based on individual effort. How does the concept of caste influence opportunities and outcomes for individuals within a society?

The concept of caste has a profound influence on opportunities and outcomes within a society. Caste determines an individual’s access to education, employment, healthcare, and social resources. It creates a predetermined hierarchy where those at the top enjoy privileges, while those at the bottom face discrimination and limited opportunities for socioeconomic mobility.

Individual effort alone cannot guarantee success within a caste system because caste-based discrimination systematically impedes upward mobility for marginalized groups. Meritocracy becomes skewed as individuals from privileged castes have greater access to education, networks, and resources that can propel them forward. Meanwhile, those from marginalized castes face systemic barriers that hinder their progress, regardless of their talents or abilities.

The concept of caste reinforces and perpetuates inequality by confining individuals to predetermined roles and limiting their potential based on arbitrary social categorization. To create a more equitable society, it is essential to challenge the notion of meritocracy and address the systemic barriers imposed by caste systems, ensuring equal opportunities and dismantling the structural inequalities that persist.

11. Your book discusses the role of language and terminology in perpetuating caste hierarchies. How can reframing our language contribute to dismantling these systems and fostering inclusivity?

Language plays a crucial role in perpetuating caste hierarchies as it reflects and reinforces societal beliefs and norms. By reframing our language, we can contribute to dismantling these systems and fostering inclusivity. One important step is to challenge and eliminate derogatory terms and slurs associated with caste identities. This helps create a more respectful and equitable environment where individuals are not stigmatized based on their caste background.

Additionally, we can strive to use inclusive and non-discriminatory language that respects the dignity and worth of all individuals, regardless of their caste. This means being mindful of the words we use and avoiding generalizations or stereotypes. Embracing language that promotes equality and acknowledges the shared humanity of all people can help reshape perceptions and break down caste-based barriers.

Reframing our language is an ongoing process that requires self-reflection, education, and open dialogue. It is an essential step towards building a society that values diversity, promotes inclusivity, and actively works towards dismantling caste systems.

12. In “Caste,” you analyze historical examples of resistance and social change. Can you share some stories of individuals or movements that have successfully challenged and disrupted caste systems?

Throughout history, there have been inspiring stories of individuals and movements that have successfully challenged and disrupted caste systems. Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, mentioned earlier, was instrumental in advocating for the rights of marginalized castes in India. His leadership and efforts resulted in significant legal reforms and social changes.

The Dalit Panthers movement in India emerged in the 1970s, uniting Dalits (formerly known as untouchables) to fight against caste-based discrimination. They organized protests, advocated for land rights, and worked towards creating awareness and solidarity among marginalized communities.

In the United States, leaders like Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, and numerous civil rights activists fought against racial segregation and discrimination during the Jim Crow era. Their tireless activism and advocacy led to landmark legislative changes and sparked a broader movement for racial justice.

These stories highlight the power of collective action and resistance in challenging entrenched caste systems. They demonstrate that change is possible through grassroots movements, education, awareness-building, and sustained efforts to dismantle discriminatory structures.

13. Caste intersects with various other forms of oppression, such as race, gender, and class. How do these intersecting systems of discrimination impact marginalized communities, and how can we address them collectively?

Caste intersects with other forms of oppression, such as race, gender, and class, exacerbating the impact on marginalized communities. These intersecting systems of discrimination compound the challenges faced by individuals, creating layers of disadvantage and marginalization.

For example, Dalit women in India face multiple forms of oppression: caste-based discrimination, gender inequality, and economic exploitation. Similarly, in the United States, marginalized communities often face overlapping discrimination based on race, socioeconomic status, and caste-like systems, perpetuating cycles of poverty and limited opportunities.

To address these intersecting systems of discrimination, collective action is necessary. It involves recognizing the interconnectedness of different forms of oppression and working towards dismantling them collectively. This requires building alliances, amplifying marginalized voices, and advocating for policies and practices that address the specific needs and challenges faced by marginalized communities.

Education, awareness, and inclusive dialogue are crucial tools in dismantling these intersecting systems of discrimination. By fostering solidarity across various marginalized groups, we can create a more equitable society that values diversity and actively works towards social justice for all.

14. Your research for “Caste” involved extensive interviews and personal stories. How did you approach the ethical considerations when sharing people’s experiences, particularly those who have endured significant trauma?

When sharing people’s experiences, particularly those who have endured significant trauma, I approached the ethical considerations with great care and sensitivity. Respecting the privacy and dignity of individuals was of utmost importance. I obtained informed consent from interviewees, ensuring they understood the purpose of sharing their stories and had the opportunity to express any preferences or concerns.

To protect the identities of individuals, I used pseudonyms or altered identifying details when necessary. It was essential to maintain confidentiality and prioritize the well-being of those who entrusted me with their experiences.

Additionally, I recognized the responsibility of accurately representing these stories while being mindful of the potential impact on readers. Trauma-informed writing practices were employed to handle sensitive content with empathy and compassion. I aimed to create a space where readers could engage with these narratives in a respectful and thoughtful manner.

15. The exploration of caste systems often prompts uncomfortable conversations and confrontations with privilege. How can individuals engage in these discussions constructively and empathetically?

Engaging in uncomfortable conversations and confronting privilege is essential for growth and progress. To approach these discussions constructively and empathetically, it is crucial to cultivate self-awareness and humility. Recognize that discomfort is a natural part of the learning process and be open to challenging your own beliefs and assumptions.

Listen actively and attentively to marginalized voices, valuing their lived experiences and perspectives. Practice empathy by seeking to understand the experiences of others without judgment or defensiveness. Avoid centering the conversation around personal guilt, but rather focus on collective responsibility and the actions that can be taken to address systemic issues.

Create a safe and respectful environment for dialogue, allowing everyone to share their thoughts and experiences. Educate yourself about the history and impact of caste systems, as well as related forms of discrimination. Engage in ongoing self-reflection and commit to continuous learning and unlearning.

Ultimately, constructive and empathetic engagement requires humility, active listening, and a genuine commitment to dismantling oppressive systems.

16. As an author, what were some of the most challenging aspects of writing “Caste”? How did you navigate the emotional toll of addressing such a profound topic?

Writing “Caste” presented numerous challenges, both intellectually and emotionally. Addressing such a profound and complex topic required extensive research, self-reflection, and grappling with the weight of historical and contemporary injustices. Navigating the emotional toll involved acknowledging and honoring the pain endured by individuals affected by caste systems while balancing that with the need for accuracy and comprehensive analysis.

To navigate these challenges, I employed self-care practices and sought support from colleagues, friends, and loved ones. Engaging in open conversations with others who shared my passion for social justice and understanding helped provide perspective and encouragement.

Additionally, emphasizing empathy and human stories throughout the book allowed me to connect emotionally with readers and foster a sense of shared understanding. It was essential to approach the writing process with sensitivity and respect, knowing that the impact of the book would extend beyond my own experiences.

While addressing difficult topics can be emotionally taxing, I remained committed to shedding light on caste systems and inspiring discussions and actions that lead to positive social change.

17. “Caste” offers a comprehensive analysis of oppressive systems, but it also points towards hope and the potential for transformation. What examples of progress or positive change did you encounter during your research?

During my research for “Caste,” I encountered numerous examples of progress and positive change that offer hope for transformation. In India, the implementation of affirmative action policies, known as reservations, has increased educational and employment opportunities for marginalized castes. Grassroots movements and advocacy groups have emerged to challenge caste-based discrimination and promote social justice.

In the United States, civil rights movements and legal reforms have led to significant advancements in dismantling racial segregation and discrimination. Efforts to address intersectionality and acknowledge the experiences of individuals facing multiple forms of oppression have gained traction, fostering greater inclusivity and solidarity.

Globally, there is a growing recognition of the interconnectedness of various forms of oppression, including caste, race, gender, and class. Intersectional activism and alliances are forming, enabling diverse marginalized groups to collectively advocate for equality and social change.

These examples of progress demonstrate that transformative change is possible when individuals and communities come together to challenge oppressive systems, foster empathy, and fight for justice and equality.

18. In your view, how does understanding caste systems as a global phenomenon help in fostering empathy and solidarity among different marginalized groups?

Understanding caste systems as a global phenomenon helps foster empathy and solidarity among different marginalized groups by highlighting the shared experiences of oppression, exclusion, and the struggle for dignity and equality. Recognizing that caste-based discrimination is not unique to a particular region or culture allows us to see the common threads that connect diverse communities facing similar challenges.

By understanding caste as a global issue, we can move beyond viewing oppression as isolated incidents and recognize the systemic nature of discrimination. This understanding encourages us to challenge not only caste-based discrimination but also other intersecting forms of oppression, such as race, gender, and class.

Fostering empathy and solidarity among marginalized groups strengthens collective movements for social justice. It creates a sense of shared purpose and empowers individuals to stand together in the fight against all forms of discrimination. Understanding the global nature of caste systems helps break down barriers and build alliances, amplifying marginalized voices and driving meaningful change.

19. What message or takeaway would you like readers to walk away with after reading “Caste”?

The main message I hope readers take away from “Caste” is that oppressive systems, such as caste, are not insurmountable. Change is possible when we confront our own biases, challenge societal norms, and work together to dismantle these structures.

I want readers to understand the profound impact of caste systems on individuals and societies, fostering empathy and understanding for those affected. By recognizing the common thread of human dignity and shared aspirations for equality, we can foster solidarity among marginalized communities.

Ultimately, “Caste” aims to inspire readers to take action, both individually and collectively, to challenge and disrupt oppressive systems. I want readers to feel empowered to engage in conversations, advocate for social justice, and contribute to building a more inclusive and equitable world. The book emphasizes that transformation requires a commitment to ongoing learning, unlearning, and working towards dismantling all forms of discrimination, with the hopeful belief that a just and equal society is within our reach.

20. Lastly, could you recommend other books or resources that complement “Caste” and further expand readers’ understanding of social structures and systemic oppression?

1. Hood Feminism: Notes from the Women That a Movement Forgot” by Mikki Kendall: Through vivid storytelling and critical analysis, “Hood Feminism” challenges readers to examine their own biases and expand their understanding of feminism beyond narrow scopes. It urges us to recognize that dismantling systemic oppression requires us to confront and rectify the structural inequalities faced by marginalized communities.

2. White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism” by Robin DiAngelo: This book examines the defensive responses and resistance to discussing racism among white people. DiAngelo offers insights into the ways white supremacy is upheld and encourages self-reflection to dismantle these systems. By fostering awareness and accountability, readers can deepen their understanding of systemic oppression and their role in challenging it.

3. Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America” by Barbara: “Nickel and Dimed” prompts readers to critically examine the socioeconomic structures that perpetuate systemic oppression. It challenges us to question societal norms and advocate for change, emphasizing the need for fair wages, affordable housing, accessible healthcare, and a more equitable distribution of resources. Through this compelling narrative, Ehrenreich invites readers to engage in conversations and actions that promote social justice and challenge the systemic barriers that trap individuals in cycles of poverty.